supsickJoin Date: 2013-01-07
Post Count: 8105 |
(Note: This thread is very long. I'll be posting a TL;DR at the bottom. Also, any argument against this thread will be countered very swiftly; I can definitively say I am right on this matter.)
S&I has been losing its sense of purpose over the years.
Maybe I could go as far as to say it already has, but that’s not the point.
It's falling, it maybe has already failed, but enough is enough.
I've seen a very potent resource for both roblox and the community crumble into a den of trolls, hatred, ignorance and general idiocy.
I've seen self-proclaimed "saviours" of roblox turn out to unwittingly attempt to destroy what they were trying to protect.
I have plans this year to change that, and so I will.
So, this thread is an attempt to try and avert S&I's corruption, what was once the greatest forum on roblox.
I'm going to tell you what's wrong; why we need to change. Then I'll tell you how to change. This thread will have attacks both to the community's way of thinking, and also the staff's way of thinking, but mainly the community.
But first, you're probably thinking "Well, where's this "Corruption" you're talking about? I don't see a lot of hatred or ignorance." And, you're right.
When this thread was posted this statement was correct.
I guarantee you there will be at least two months in all of 2014 where this statement is incorrect, and it's those months I'm getting onto.
Two months, big deal. Let me get onto that later.
Another thing you're probably thinking is "You're arrogant, saying that you're right in the first paragraph of this thread. Who do you think you are?" My answer to that is I'm an S&Ier, arguably the most experienced one. Of all my 20k+ posts (I haven't hit 20k when I made this thread, but I'm going to in at most February.) I'd estimate about only 1000 of them weren't made in S&I. I started S&Iing In February 2009 under a different account, and I started S&Iing on this one a day after it was made. It's shaped me as a human being, matured me. I guess I have some sentimental attachments to it. Probably just don't have a life though :3. My point though, is with those 5 years (Maybe even 6 or more when you see this thread, I'm building it to last.) come experience and knowledge. I know things that you might not have even heard about. I know exactly why and how things are on S&I simply because I saw them, experienced them. If they go back early enough, I could have joined in on them. I could easily give a history of S&I, from Meelo to Malvus.
But introductions aside, let's actually get on with the thread.
So, WHAT'S wrong with S&I? What's its corruption?
Short answer: Destructive criticism, which is a lack of constructive criticism.
S&I is here to be constructive about updates. When a bad one appears, we're destructive. We're hateful.
I've gone over destructive and constructive criticism so many times that I’ll keep it short.
Let me put it this way:
When you're called a noob, what do you do?
If you aren't extremely easily insulted, you ignore it. That's destructive criticism- a minor annoyance no one cares about.
What about constructive criticism?
An analogy for that is peer assessment in school; They look what you're doing, and say "Here's what you can do to improve.", and then you improve based on them. Okay, your forced to, but you’re an idiot if you don’t listen to it.
Now, what about a SURGE of destructive criticism like IRL, with strikes?
What you might not realise is that A) They don't work and B) there's some people in the backdoor room being constructive, and that's what they listen to. That surge of destructive criticism won't have any impact. You pay attention to what's helpful, not what's harmful. What's helpful? Constructive criticism, improvements. What's harmful? Destructive criticism.
No one listens to destructive criticism. It's basically trolling, really.
EVERYONE listens to constructive criticism- why wouldn't you? It's helpful.
Roblox follows this; EVERY SINGLE CHANGE OR REMOVAL OF AN UPDATE HAS BEEN FROM CONSTRUCTION. NEVER HAS IT BEEN DESTRUCTIVE.
Outlines being made optional.
Ex-BCers getting five places instead of 0.
The price floor being 100 tix as opposed to 300.
That's just in 2013.
There are 50 million accounts on roblox. That makes even a 200 page post insignificant. You are insignificant. If you want to be heard, you have to become significant, and that's done with popularity and size. Then you're judged. If you're destructive, you'll be ignored.
And you might be thinking "Roblox screwed up, why should we help them?"
This question is very important because I hear this occasionally and it makes me think that people have completely forgotten why S&I is here. It's not to whine; it's to turn your complaint of an idea INTO an idea.
Two answers to this.
1) You're in S&I, you have to. Deal with it.
2) Because they can't fix the mess if you DON'T.
I'm now going to talk about one of roblox's messes, the price floor.
Now, explain in a single sentence for me what S&I should be about in a single sentence.
If you didn't mention the word concept or execution, you're wrong.
S&I is about three things:
1) Suggesting concepts for roblox to make.
AKA Suggest ideas.
2) Changing the execution of concepts roblox has made.
Basically, changing an existing update.
3) Replacing a concept's execution.
The third one's a bit awkward in that it never gets used, but the price floor is an example of why it’s here.
http://blog.roblox.com/2013/09/price-floor-t-shirts-shirts-and-pants/
Turn your attention to this bit:
"Why are we making this change? There are three main reasons:
1.Raise the quality of items in the catalog.
2.Reward makers and sellers of clothing.
3.To incentivize non-paying users to buy ROBUX."
That's the CONCEPT. That's what they wanted the price floor to do.
The price floor is the EXECUTION of those three reasons.
Is it a bad execution? Probably.
Does that make the concept bad? Do you want better catalog items? How about rewarding clothing makers? Those are two good things. Don't argue, I'm right; good things right there. Robux incentives… not so much but still.
We could have made a different way of executing those concepts, like we should have. OR we could have made the price floor execute the concept better, what I made a thread about. (http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=120450155) But instead we whined. What did that get us? Constructive people only reducing the price floor to 100 tix. That's it.
It could have been so much more, but it wasn't. We were destructive, and as a result it was not changed as well as it could be.
Whilst we're on the topic of destruction, they ATTEMPTED to do something good (The concept). They failed (The price floor/execution) but we didn't care. We just flamed them. We flamed someone for something I don't think we can do. In fact, scratch that- We flamed someone for something most of us couldn’t do better at, slugging down those who can. That, as far as I'm concerned, is trolling. Even if it isn't, it's definitely pathetic cretinism.
It's not just the price floor this has happened. I once said the price floor was the second worst mass-whining about one of roblox's updates, but I've decided it's the worst. It happens every single time there's a controversial update. Not even necessarily bad, just with anxious connotations.
So, Why are we so destructive? There could be multiple reasons, but from S&I's purpose and as far as I was aware, it was because of a person named Meelo. Malvus and other people only reinforce Meelo's influence in the mind of a robloxian. Meelo started the stereotypes, whilst Malvus (And other people/things) reinforced them. Well, Meelo and all the media about striking all the time.
When I say Meelo and Malvus, I was comparing two very important threads to S&I's history.
"The Quintessential Thread" by Meelo, and "[PETITION] Put clothing back to 5 tix at minimum", by Malvus.
I don't want to make it a personal attack, but it's probably going to turn into one for Malvus. Sorry Malvus, but you and your thread is just so much of a perfect example of what’s wrong with S&I I can’t omit it. Those people made it, that's all I'm saying. "Meelo's thread" and "Malvus' thread" is shorter and easier to type.
Who knows of Malvus' thread?... Everyone... Have you been living under a rock these past five months?
Meelo? No one, anymore. That's because Meelo's thread was locked back in 2012, and I have my own speculations for that.
Meelo's thread was the biggest non-admin, non-MOAP thread on S&I for a long time, until Malvus and other people showed up and took that position. Currently, Malvus' thread holds the title, and that's a problem. You see, Meelo's thread and Malvus' thread (I'll show you them eventually, hold on) are the exact same thing- A protest, an argument, a hatred for roblox's update(s). That's fine.
The biggest difference is how they use this hate- Meelo does it well and is constructive, whilst Malvus doesn't and is destructive.
So let me show you these two threads, btw.
Here's Meelo: http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=13781801
Here's Malvus: http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=113830395
Meelo’s is an example of a good thread, stuff we need more on S&I.
Malvus’ is what we need to remove.
Here’s the important discrepancies between these two threads:
Meelo’s is big, whilst Malvus’ is small. Meelo put more into the thread than Malvus.
Meelo has constructive suggestions, whilst Malvus copy and pasted his title.
Meelo got 50 pages in two years. Malvus got over 200 in five months. Not really fair, considering Meelo’s the better thread. By far.
So, we now know what and why: Constructive criticism is good, but there's not a lot of it when we need it.
So, I want S&I to be what it should be- A haven for constructive criticism, free of destructive criticism. ALL the time.
My concept is to make S&I more constructive all year around, and remove destructive criticism. We want more Meelos, and less Malvuses.
()*---*SUGGESTIONS START HERE, THERE'S A TL;DR DOWN BELOW.*---*()
Here's my execution of the concept:
Note: Consider putting S&I on a different site, like uservoice.
I've noticed that as I make my suggestions, they branch too far from an ordinary roblox forum, and thus may require a specialized site. The benefits of this site are so enormous though that I feel it is completely worth it. Maybe stick it on that roblox developer site.
A) Force the WNTS and update it more.
First argument against this would be:
"We should have a voice against unwanted updates."
The WNTS GIVES you that, instead of taking it away. Your defiance of it takes your opinion away.
You see, the WNTS is a purifier. It removes bad/unuseable/oversuggested updates from S&I, allowing good ones to grow. Good ones being constructive, bad ones being destructive/bad.
A quick aside... Well, a quick aside for my standards but oh well. Here's another reason why you should be constructive:
http://blog.roblox.com/2011/05/ideas-and-suggestions-for-roblox/
"In general it’s better to search and add your voice to an existing idea than to make a duplicate idea." The WNTS makes you do just that... Or it did, when it worked in 2010 and didn't now.
You see, The first major hate against one of roblox's update was in 2011, about january/february. BC only places, the second worst rant as of this thread's post date.
All of S&I was awash with "REMOVE BC ONLY PLACES!" ...What's your opinion on it now? It's useless, isn't it? All that for nothing.
You see, in the years of 2011 and 2012, the WNTS didn't exist. It was around in 2009 and 2010, but I
(http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=69832618) reinstated it. MANY people requested its return, a LOT more than people who want it removed. It worked in 2010, so it’ll work now… with some niceness. But, I digress.
Back to uservoice, where you didn't have to make a duplicate idea. You found another and added onto it.
Uservoice was made three months after the second worst whining the community has ever done.
Coincedence? I think not. I don't actually know, but it's too convenient in my books. Given how uservoice was abandoned... I believe some time around when I reinstated the WNTS... Yeah, it's curious. If we were constructive, that probably wouldn't have happened. And uservoice is bad because of this:
"The goal is to build power behind the most desired ideas!"
The most desired idea is not the best idea, or the one that should be implemented the most. (And to people saying that uservoice made updates whilst S&I didn't, that's because uservoice has the ability to not be destructive or constructive. We can get better results by being constructive with the goal of making S&I constructive. Easily. Also, Most accepted updates on uservoice were suggested on S&I before uservoice existed.)
So, it's useful. We can enforce it simply:
Merge the WNTS with the S&I rules. (http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=80622076) Just to make it simpler.
New accounts have to read the WNTS before they enter S&I. They get sent to the WNTS page saying "These are a series of rules about what not to suggest and general S&Iing. Please read them for you will be punished if you violate them." for 30 seconds and can't enter until after that period. Perhaps add a quiz to test and make sure they get it. If they violate the WNTS without proper authorization (See below) they get their post locked and they can't start a new thread on S&I for a week.
Every time the WNTS is updated, you have to go through the process again, and the update will be highlighted. Yes, this requires moderation, I know, but S&I can be so potent a resource it deserves this kind of moderation. Also, this new WNTS would have a guide on how to be constructive. Alos, Call it a "Full guide to S&I" or something like that. WNTS with rules and info feels weird.
There IS one exception to the WNTS though. If the post adds something new to a certain thing on the WNTS, you can break the WNTS and suggest it. If it's the same but different, it's fine.
B) Incentives to post constructively.
Let's say I will flip a coin.
If you get heads, you get nothing. If you get tails, you get a bag of sweets.
What are you more focused on? The sweets, right?
Let's flip another.
If you get heads, you get a back of sweets. If you get tails, you get a punch to the face.
Do you want to flip that coin? No. You care more about being punched in the face then a bag of sweets. You care more about the punishment than the reward.
Because suggestion A punishes you, I would suggest some kind of reward.
If you have an idea that gets accepted, you get money. Simple.
Money for being constructive and Punishments for not being constructive. Sounds like a good incentive to me.
And yes, I do realise how greedy that sounds. I always sound so full of myself :3
I don't care about money, personally.
Also, the more constructive you are, the more money you get.
Meelo put time into his thread. If you make more money then just saying "I want this, here's why", it makes you put a bit more effort in your thread, which is infinitely more beneficial.
Meelo made a good solid thread but only got 50 pages in 2 years.
Malvus repeated his title (Which was destructive in its own right) and got 200+ pages in five months.
Not fair.
C) Make the people that search S&I more public.
Here's the list of all the people I know that are dedicated to S&I:
GordonRox12
CorgiParade
Someone else
That's it.
Some people think S&I's useless; we don't get listened to.
We used to, definitely, but I want to absolutely make sure that we do, and that we know that we do. I want to restore an amazing resource that gives us a voice. A powerful voice. If we don't know that our voice is going to get listened to, why bother using it?
If we know that we're being listened to, we'll be more happy to suggest good things, right?
If they know that we're suggesting good things and not just hating on them, they're happier to listen to us.
This can be done by them posting more often, and also something from uservoice:
You know how you have Planned, Made, Under development and Denied statuses from uservoice? Those.
Moderators can put a variety of tags on a thread, which are:
Accepted. - The maker of the post, and anyone who was contructive in that post, gets some money. More construction = more money.
Under development. - It's being made. Duh
Created. - It's made. Duh... Except there should be a sticky about ideas that got made to help lighten the mood.
Denied. - Will go into the WNTS for thurther measurement.
Considering. - A moderator has viewed the thread.
D) Moderation thresholds.
Basically, for every X posts in a thread FROM DIFFERENT PEOPLE, a moderator gets a PM to check the thread out. Bigger threads require less posts to tigger this PM, making people who put more effort into posts get rewarded more. And to make sure the size is from actual content, beefing up your post artificially (Without useful content) is against the rules.
Meelo's thread was useful and big. Malvus' thread was useless and tiny.
E) Empowered players/Me.
I once made a suggestion once about a varient on volunteer mods called empowered players. Basically, mods hired a few people whose reports went straight on top of the stack of reports- AKA, their reports got noticed instantly.
If we can't have a different website, make the mods look for a few individuals who S&I a lot (Browse here: http://www.roblox.com/My/Groups.aspx?gid=276381) and ask them to look out for good threads. These good threads are then linked to the mods at the end of the week to be processed. This can stop a moderation problem, allowing mods to just moderate
more things. Different things.
I, and here's where I sound the most arrogant in all of this thread, am a perfect candidate for this. There should be more than one empowered player, though. As a rule, you don't know who else has this role of "S&I hunting", because you shouldn't be allowed to link your own ideas- that's just greed.
This has even been suggested before: http://www.roblox.com/Groups/group.aspx?gid=130190
Not by me of course, but darklight08 is the best debater S&I ever saw, the worthiest for this position (If he didn't quit BECAUSE OF DESTRUCTIVE CRITICISM- your whining made my friend quit. Another reason to be constructive.) so I guess I kind of
take his place... Can I make a single post without sounding arrogant!? .-.
F) Hole filling.
If roblox has a problem/thing they want doing/fixing, tell us it. Don't try to fix it yourself.
This is what happened with the price floor.
Sometimes I see myself making suggestions for upcoming updates only to see my suggestion infinitely better. My example being this:
http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=94515819
Aeons ago, I made this thing called HOTS, an idea for a trading system. I reiterated it over the years and combined it with another thing about crafting to make HOTPICS, the ridiculously long and amazing system about trading and crafting. That update, right there… It’s good. Ridiculously long to the point you can’t read it, but good.
A pleasure of mine is suggesting infinitely better versions of things roblox’s going to make, so I can laugh in their face when they ignore my thread and get complaints about how crappy their update is. :3 Hole filling allows other people to do that.
G) Editing Original Posts.
I'm normally against this, but if someone posts something constructive, you might want to add it to the OP so.
Only OPs though, not normal posts.
You can also see previous versions of a post to prevent abuse.
Seven suggestions here. I want to move to the benefits of these executions.
1) The community gets a proper voice. Not an idiotic one no one likes, not a whining one, but a proper, honest voice the devs can use, and will use happily. Seriously, this single reason is outright the only thing I need to validate this entire thread. It's that useful.
2) Negative stereotypes about the mods (They don't listen, they're greedy, etcetera.) are cast away.
3) Happiness. People will be more happy. Mods will be more happy.
4) We get more updates.
Seven executions of a concept with four benefits that are completely useful to everyone.
Win-Win.
THIS is how a thread in S&I should be done. Okay, maybe not as long, but still Who benefits from this thread? Everyone. The mods, the people, me. And also, this thread's arguments are flawless. If you want to argue them, I've been debating the points raised here for at least 3 years. You will lose, I am right. Deal with it. I've even kept half the points I could raise from the thread to keep it shorter, because I’ve learnt just how much you all hate long posts… Lazy morons…
Anyway, Q&A:
"If this was such a problem, why hasn't roblox responded to it?"
Ask them.
My speculation would be this:
"This thread will have attacks both to the community's way of thinking, and also the staff's way of thinking," I'm not saying the staff is unscathed from this thread. They've done some wrong things. Undervaluing S&I is one of them.
"Do you want to punish people for making bad ideas?"
No.
Bad ideas will always happen.
I still make them sometimes.
I want original ideas to thrive, and unoriginal ideas to die.
I want construction to live, and destruction to die.
That is all.
"You're arrogant."
I sound* arrogant.
It's just how I speak/type.
:/
What else would we Q&A...
"Where's the TL;DR?"
Here:
>:U::U:<
S&I needs to be made so it can be more constructive.
It's dying from the community being destructive and not S&I's purpose, constructive. It’s also dying from the staff neglecting it.
Seven ideas to make S&I more constructive:
1) Force the WNTS.
2) Give people money for making good suggestions.
3) Make mods who go on S&I more public/accessible.
4) Posts with a certain number of replies from different people get sent to mods.
5) Make normal people "S&I idea hunters".
6) Roblox posts any problems it has and makes them public.
7) Editing Original Posts.
Guys, if you have another suggestion on how to make S&I a better place, suggest them.
If you have any questions, answer them.
Expect heavy resistance if you try and argue with this thread though.
Thanks for the support.
If you don’t support, state why or your argument is invalid and I’ll just assume it as a support.
If you TL;DR, I’ll just assume you support as well because that’s probably not going to do.
(Fun fact: I used the magic of copy and paste to take up space. c:)
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