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but then again, 200,000 civilians dying is better than soviet occupation.
sure, it was either atomic bombs or an american invasion, but the soviets were also closing in too, so.
good thing those bombs were dropped before those soviets came close. |
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Apoc3005Join Date: 2014-06-16
Post Count: 3071 |
gent, it was a different time period
you can't go around comparing to today's mindset because it was just different back then
were public beheadings ever justified? were the salem witch trials justified?
times change. at the time, it was the right thing to do. hindsight is 20/20 though, and of course in today's (seeminlgy) loving and morally sound standards, that move would never fly. things change. |
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adrien99Join Date: 2007-08-01
Post Count: 6261 |
Months before the end of the war, Japan's leaders recognized that defeat was inevitable. In April 1945 a new government headed by Kantaro Suzuki took office with the mission of ending the war. When Germany capitulated in early May, the Japanese understood that the British and Americans would now direct the full fury of their military power exclusively against them.
American officials, having long since broken Japan's secret codes, knew from intercepted messages that the country's leaders were seeking to end the war on terms as favorable as possible. Details of these efforts were known from decoded secret communications between the Foreign Ministry in Tokyo and Japanese diplomats abroad.
In his 1965 study, Atomic Diplomacy: Hiroshima and Potsdam (pp. 107, 108), historian Gar Alperovitz writes:
Although Japanese peace feelers had been sent out as early as September 1944 (and [China's] Chiang Kai-shek had been approached regarding surrender possibilities in December 1944), the real effort to end the war began in the spring of 1945. This effort stressed the role of the Soviet Union ...
In mid-April [1945] the [US] Joint Intelligence Committee reported that Japanese leaders were looking for a way to modify the surrender terms to end the war. The State Department was convinced the Emperor was actively seeking a way to stop the fighting.
A Secret Memorandum
It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.
In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)
This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:
Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals. |
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was america not bombed first?
did america not warn japan several times before?
it was justified
Execution trumps experience.. |
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GentaurgJoin Date: 2011-03-19
Post Count: 8648 |
erm USA still operates by the same mindset as they did in 1945
youre acting like this is 100s of years ago but its not this is recent history, with secularized western society, religion weakened
the bombs were shows of force against the soviets "we can wipe your cities out with a single bomb"- what a shame they already were conducting nuclear tests on their own |
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adrien99Join Date: 2007-08-01
Post Count: 6261 |
In April and May 1945, Japan made three attempts through neutral Sweden and Portugal to bring the war to a peaceful end. On April 7, acting Foreign Minister Mamoru Shigemitsu met with Swedish ambassador Widon Bagge in Tokyo, asking him "to ascertain what peace terms the United States and Britain had in mind." But he emphasized that unconditional surrender was unacceptable, and that "the Emperor must not be touched." Bagge relayed the message to the United States, but Secretary of State Stettinius told the US Ambassador in Sweden to "show no interest or take any initiative in pursuit of the matter." Similar Japanese peace signals through Portugal, on May 7, and again through Sweden, on the 10th, proved similarly fruitless.
By mid-June, six members of Japan's Supreme War Council had secretly charged Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo with the task of approaching Soviet Russia's leaders "with a view to terminating the war if possible by September." On June 22 the Emperor called a meeting of the Supreme War Council, which included the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, and the leading military figures. "We have heard enough of this determination of yours to fight to the last soldiers," said Emperor Hirohito. "We wish that you, leaders of Japan, will strive now to study the ways and the means to conclude the war. In doing so, try not to be bound by the decisions you have made in the past." |
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lol no to the us 100 years is like fifteen thousand billion years |
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GentaurgJoin Date: 2011-03-19
Post Count: 8648 |
the bombs are revered as the "catalyst that made japan surrender"
you are trying to justify 200 000 civillian deaths by "The USA Warned Them!"
the soviets were the ONLY reason japan surrendered
two less cities behind the japanese troops bunkered at the coast waiting for the americans did NOT change ANYTHING, those soldiers were still waiting for the americans |
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i think youre forgetting that japan bombed america first lmao
Execution trumps experience.. |
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GentaurgJoin Date: 2011-03-19
Post Count: 8648 |
Japan Bombed Us First SO WE NUKE AND KILL 200 000 NON COMBATANTS!!!!!!!!!
AMERICA!!!!!!
FREDOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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adrien99Join Date: 2007-08-01
Post Count: 6261 |
A reason that America was unjustified in dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was because Japan was ready to surrender only a few months after the warning was given out. With nearly 60 cities destroyed because of American troops as well as bombs, Japan saw that there was little more hope for them and in order to save lives they would surrender.
A document sent to the American generals stated the Japanese terms of surrender. The terms included:
· Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
· Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
· Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
· Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
· Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
· Surrender of designated war criminals.
However, because of the inflexibility of the terms, Japan was rejected of their pleads for peace. It is arguable that the Japanese were unwilling to adjust their terms, but after several attempts to create peace America should have granted them their requests. This would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
In addition, the U.S. generals did not give enough time for word to filter out that they were going to atomic bomb Nagasaki. Had they given out the warning sooner, innocent lives would not have been lost. Also, if the Japanese were aware of the disastrous effects of the bomb they would have surrendered unconditionally in order to protect the lives of their people.
The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings did not defeat Japan, nor did they persuade Japan to accept surrender unconditionally. The emperor, along with other government officials, decided that the war should be ended even if it meant accepting defeat as early as May of 1945. If America had given them more time to retreat and prove that they were determined to create peace the atomic bombs would not have been necessary.
An additional reason for the atomic bombing was to prove to the rest of the world, especially the Soviet Union, that America had a strong military. However, it was not worth killing an unbelievable amount of innocent lives in order to prove how powerful they are.
Albert Einstein, Scientis who greatly
contributed to the making of the
Atomic Bomb
Another reason for the bombing was to justify the nearly two billion dollars spent on the atomic bombs manufacture. General Eisenhower, along with many other officials as well as civilians knew about the production of the atomic bomb. If the government were to not use the bomb Americans would lose faith in their government and assume that they do not know how to spend their money wisely. Therefore the use of the bomb was apparently "necessary".
Even Albert Einstein, a scientist that assisted in the production of the bomb, thought that detonating it was incredibly inhumane.
"In the summer of 1939 Dr. Szilard put before me his views concerning the potential importance of uranium for national defense. He was greatly disturbed by the potentialities involved and anxious that the United States Government be advised of them as soon as possible." Einstein goes on to say, "I understand that he [Dr. Szilard] now is greatly concerned about the lack of adequate contact between scientists who are doing this work and those members of your Cabinet who are responsible for formulating policy."
The atomic bombs use greatly concerned Dr. Szilard, as well as Albert Einstein. There were various devastating repercussions that were overlooked by the American generals as well as President Roosevelt.
Including on the opinion to not drop the bomb, the head scientist of creating the bomb during the Manhattan Project, Robert Oppenheimer didn’t agree with dropping it. When Oppenheimer saw how explosive the bomb was he said it had reminded him of a saying from a book “Bhagavad Gita: I am become death, destroyer of worlds.” Oppenheimer was distraught to think that something he had created had destroyed so many lives and he felt responsible for those who died because of the bombs. Robert Oppenheimer said towards the end of his life in regards to the atomic bombings, "I have no remorse about the making of the bomb and Trinity [the first test of an a-bomb]. That was done right. As for how we used it, I understand why it happened and appreciate with what nobility those men with whom I'd worked made their decision. But I do not have the feeling that it was
done right. The ultimatum to Japan [the Potsdam Proclamation demanding Japan's surrender] was full of pious platitudes. ...our government should have acted with more foresight and clarity in telling the world and Japan what the bomb meant." This quote expressed from how he felt about the bombing shows that he didn’t intend it to be used in such a horrific way.
Not only did the main directors of making the atomic bomb not agree with it, but the military was very limited compared to the amount of military. The two cities that America decided to bomb didn’t even have much military power. Civilians had outnumbered troops from six to one. If America really wanted to hurt Japan so badly by using such a powerful weapon, they should have bombed somewhere where it could have made a bigger impact against their military instead of innocent citizens.
Another reason to look at, why couldn’t America just use fire bombings instead of atomic bombings? America became the first and only country to use atomic weapons throughout every- single year of history throughout the whole entire world. Firebombing would have hurt Japan too, but America used the atomic bombs just to look superior compared to other countries, especially the Soviet Union. If anything, the U.S. should have only needed to bomb Japan once, besides the war was almost over anyways.
Finally, it is an opinion of many people that the main reason America dropped the atomic bombs on Japan was because they wanted to scare and seem ahead of the Soviet Union at the time. Tensions were beginning to build up in Europe, especially with the Soviet Union and Stalin trying to seem more of a threat to America and other countries. By dropping the bomb, it was another way for America to “Flex its muscles” and seem powerful to all other countries at the time |
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gentuarg where are you getting your sources?
"the nukes weren't justified as the soviet union was about to defeat japan"
The US was about to defeat Japan, not russia?
Yes russia officially declared war on japan as the US planned but they had limited military action.
The Japanese were not deciding to surrender until after the atomic bombs.
You can say its not 'fair' to kill civilians.
But war is war.
During world war two both allies and axis were dropping bombs on cities during air raids.
Both sides claimed they were hitting 'military targets' but they knew the planes were not accurate. They hopped to hit factories, railways, anything to slow the other sides war effort.
The only way to convince another side to surrender is make their countries citizens demand their government too.
During WW2 the japanese people were obviate on whats going on.
US asks for japans surrender
No response.
First bomb dropped
US asks japan to surrender
No response.
Second bomb dropped
Japan surrenders. |
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adrien99Join Date: 2007-08-01
Post Count: 6261 |
"The US was about to defeat Japan, not russia?
Yes russia officially declared war on japan as the US planned but they had limited military action.
The Japanese were not deciding to surrender until after the atomic bombs.
You can say its not 'fair' to kill civilians.
But war is war.
During world war two both allies and axis were dropping bombs on cities during air raids.
Both sides claimed they were hitting 'military targets' but they knew the planes were not accurate. They hopped to hit factories, railways, anything to slow the other sides war effort.
The only way to convince another side to surrender is make their countries citizens demand their government too.
During WW2 the japanese people were obviate on whats going on.
US asks for japans surrender
No response.
First bomb dropped
US asks japan to surrender
No response.
Second bomb dropped
Japan surrenders.
"
did you even read my posts |
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no point in arguing with ignorance
Execution trumps experience.. |
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Japan is a great country today.
You think the US's surrender conditions were unfair?
Try the soviet union.
The US was justified.
As for your saying japan asked the US they wanted to surrender earlier,
show me proof |
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jeen123Join Date: 2011-02-07
Post Count: 1880 |
Just because There is a warbetween >SOLDIERS< does not mean civilians need to be targetted. |
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adrien99Join Date: 2007-08-01
Post Count: 6261 |
A document sent to the American generals stated the Japanese terms of surrender. The terms included:
· Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
· Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
· Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
· Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
· Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
· Surrender of designated war criminals.
However, because of the inflexibility of the terms, Japan was rejected of their pleads for peace. It is arguable that the Japanese were unwilling to adjust their terms, but after several attempts to create peace America should have granted them their requests. This would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. |
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civilians are targeted in every war
Execution trumps experience.. |
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If Japan wanted to surrender earlier they would of STOPPED attacking US naval fleets and made a public appearance to the world, They didn't do any of that. |
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GentaurgJoin Date: 2011-03-19
Post Count: 8648 |
the second bomb was dropped after the japanese started talking surrender
however, the soviets declared war before they started talking surrender
the japanese had 2 peace plans:
A. ask stalin (they had a peace agreement with the soviets that would last until 1946) to negotiate with the americans, give them better conditions
B. deal immense damage against the americans in the american invasion, so the americans might be more lenient
however, the soviet declaration of war removed option A, this leaves only option B; however:
you can probably deal enough damage against the americans only to make them reconsider, but you have 2 SUPERPOWERS against you, you will not be able to deal enough damage to both to make them consider conditional surrender
this was what made them surrender, not 2 more cities in ruins |
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america is dumb. what ever, we've done a lot of other crap too lol. |
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Apoc3005Join Date: 2014-06-16
Post Count: 3071 |
"erm USA still operates by the same mindset as they did in 1945
youre acting like this is 100s of years ago but its not this is recent history, with secularized western society, religion weakened"
really now.
same mindset?
so racism wasn't more prevalent in 1945, women weren't more heavily discriminated against,etc.?
hell, look how much we changed between 1945 and the 1960/70s, we went from huge elaborate war campaigns that united the entire nation to an overwhelming opposition of our capmaign in vietnam
the world changes drastically socially faster and faster as we advance
it's gotten to the point that we can't even compare ourselves to that of ourselves two decades ago |
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They wanted to get more favorable terms of surrender. The emperor wanted to maintain control of the nation and they did not want an occupation force that would keep them from building another military. On the other hand, the rest of the world did not want Japan to build their military and attack again, so the rest of the world required unconditional surrender. The Allies had already suffered enough loss during the war and did not want to send a million soldiers to their death in an ivasion of Japan, so since the Emperor refused to surrender, the Allies used nuclear weapons to force compliance. There really was no other choice to President Truman at the time.
The Japanese did not surrender because they had too much honor. Their emperor would not accept defeat and their people would fight to the death. They were not afraid and even after the bombs were dropped they didn't surrender. |
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adrien99Join Date: 2007-08-01
Post Count: 6261 |
"The Japanese did not surrender because they had too much honor. Their emperor would not accept defeat and their people would fight to the death. They were not afraid and even after the bombs were dropped they didn't surrender."
read
my
POSTS |
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GentaurgJoin Date: 2011-03-19
Post Count: 8648 |
ah, but did not the same happen in iraq too? ah, but is the same not happening in syria, iraq etc. now? ah, but will the same not happen with iran? |
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